Venezuela’s leader Hugo Chavez, said Mr. Bush promoted “a false democracy of the elite” and a “democracy of bombs”. I agree. Hugo Chavez said “He (Mr. Bush) came here talking as if he were the owner of the world”, I agree. “The UN in its current form doesn’t work”, he said. I agree.
I will not visit the Boston Summit because I’m against its country’s foreign policy. Try again when you guys have real and good leaders in Washington. I know the people organizing the summit aren’t responsible for American foreign policy. Their non-guilt isn’t the point. The point is philosophical: I can’t visit a country that doesn’t respect human rights, is directly responsible for thousands of innocent dead and of which its politicians think that they own the planet. They don’t. For me, visiting the country wouldn’t feel right.
My apologizes to them who wanted to talk with me. At GUADEC I hesitated because the group of people representing GNOME are great. It nearly overruled the problems I have with visiting the US. Recent happenings in the world, however, convinced me I shouldn’t visit the country. I simply can’t.
America and its capitalism have done more for the poor and other countries than most other countries combined (except when we give them money – that that only helps to prolong their agony and reliance on others)
but if you don’t believe in good and bad, then it is alot more easy to swallow your point of view – as I can then see what point of view you are comming from.
And I would probably agree with you on some points about this country – such as the rediculously large/complex tax code, the fact that social security exists and shouldn’t – as well as most other social programs, immenent domain; which would, with their discontinuance, allow people greater freedom to do what they them selves plan and not what others plan for them.
I also agree that the UN is retarded, and the USA should get it off of their soil as it is full of terrorist liberal crap
@jared: I respect your freedom of speech. But I disagree with most of what you say. Where I live we have even higher taxes and an even more complex infrastructure for social security and tax. Far more complex and far higher tax rates (I live in Belgium). Yet I agree with my government that this is the best system. Social security, at least in my country, is a necessity and is good.
I didn’t mention domestic policy of the US. I don’t understand why you, in your defense, mention it. I shouldn’t and I’m not against the current domestic policy of the current US politicians. That policy is the problem of the US citizens. That’s you guys. It’s not (not at all) my problem. If you folks are happy with no (or a bad) social security, then fine. Foreign policy of the US, however, DOES affects MY live. Therefore I AM rightfully against the foreign policy of your country.
Maybe as a US citizen you don’t see it. Maybe you naively believe that the US is “good” and others are “bad”. I indeed don’t believe in this “good” and “bad”. I believe that this believe in “good” and “bad” of most US citizens has led to the situation where American people actually believe they are doing good, for the rest of the world, by imposing their “democracy of the elite” upon them.
“You can have democracy, if you give us your oil”. Democracy, by the way, is the most misinterpreted form of politics since humankind. The United States, for example, aren’t experiencing a true democratic system, in my opinion. Maybe you should study the democratic politic systems the ancient Greeks experimented with, to know what true democracy might mean.
Philip,
Can you elaborate a little bit on the specific bits of US Foreign Policy that you find so unappealing, and explain how they have changed since the last time you have visited the US?
You wrote above “Foreign policy of the US, however, DOES affects MY live. Therefore I AM rightfully against the foreign policy of your country.” I’m also curious which aspects of US Foreign Policy have had this negative impact on your life.
Respectfully (not trying to be a troll), …Eric (an American, although one of the half that voted for “the other guy”)
while I appreciate your point you have to realise that your actions will do nothing to stop Bush and all that will be gained is the delusion of a good conscience
Hey Eric,
I never visited the US so nothing can have changed.
However. Some of the specific bits that I find unappealing about US foreign politics: the fact that the US has not stopped increasing arms and defense budget (which is the US way of showing the world that they rule it), how it tries to decide how the Middle East should become (while they don’t have any idea of the culture in the region, nor have they earned the respect of the people who live there), their action in Iraq in general, how they accuse every entity that isn’t 100% pro the US of terrorism, their political and military support for Israels terror actions in Lebanon (for example: the US provided Israel with weapons of mass destruction while this war was happening), how America keeps countries like Cuba (and many others) poor, prisons and places where America tortures people and disrespects human rights, the decision not to sign the Kyoto protocol, the simple fact that they put an idiot like John Bolton at the position of US ambassador to the UN and many many many other things.
Thanks for voting for the other guy. I hope the American people will overcome this current president and (at the next elections) pick a better (group of) person(s) to lead their country.
ps. I believe Mr. Bush is just a puppet. I’m not holding him personally responsible for everything (not that I like him, I definitely don’t). That’s why I write: “group of persons to lead their country”.
benlr: Not throwing paper (or dirt) on the ground but in stead putting it in a trashbin also won’t change anything to the pollution of this planet. Yet, out of principle, I don’t do it. I’m a men of principles. I know my principles wont change the world. It’s a way of living my life: with principles. Some of them are indeed for my conscience. Most of them, however, aren’t. I’m also the type of guy that, out of principle, is a vegetarian. That’s because I believe people these days don’t understand how meat came to their plate. I would eat animals if I hunted them myself. So I’m not a vegetarian for my conscience. I don’t feel bad about killing animals. I’m a vegetarian out of principle: I don’t agree with some of the methods used for killing animals in a mass production setting.
I don’t visit America because of my conscience. I don’t visit it out of principle: I don’t agree with most of the current foreign policy of the US. Changing the world is not my job. Living by my principles, is.
my defence was tounge and cheek – it was meant to be light hearted and to make one laugh – as it was sarcastic -> so as to demonstrate that I understood that the differences between us ran deeper than we had both noted.
though I should note, I do beleive in the things that I said, but the tounge and cheek part was that I was mentioning things that you had not even commented about
to your last comment
we are not a democracy
we are a representative republic
I’m Canadian and in many things I disagree with the US and their foreign policy. But you should remember a few things. First, the US is the only country in the world that wasn’t created based on race, religion, language or ethnicity, but based on the idea of freedom. As in “all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness”. And the large majority of Americans truly believe that individual freedom is for everyone, that’s its a universal principle. And in that and that it must be spread.
So its the society that created RMS and the GPL. Yes its the country that created Nixon, but its also the country where the free press was strong enough to bring him down.
Its also the society that created Wolfowitz and the idea that the future of the Middle East (and the whole world) is liberal democracy with guaranteed individual freedoms. And to them, its just impossible to understand that some people (like many muslim arabs) would think that individual freedoms are secondary and that they’d rather prefer a society with thight controls. I think you are starting to see that too with the problem that you have with your immigrants in Europe.
And you should see the invasion of Iraq in that light, wanting to spread freedom and democracy in the middle east. Yes, it was horribly mis-managed. But do you think it would have been better to let the Iraqis under Saddam?
Yes, they have a massive military budget and they keep on spending more. But remember that its army defeated Hitler and prevented Stalin’s expansion. You probably wouldn’t have all the freedoms you have now wheren’t it for the US. And also remember that since they are the dominating power in the world, there has been no major war in the world. If they stopped projecting their power around the world, who would ensure world peace? Certainly not Belgium! Or do you think there should be no world policeman? Then who would stop Iran from getting nuclear weapons? Or North Korea from invading South Korea? They have one their shoulders the responsabily for world peace that no other country has.
Was their reaction to 9/11 excessive, maybe. But was their reaction to Pearl Harbour excessive too by that standard? (Remember that during WW2, Canadan and the US put all the people of Japanese origin in internment camps…). Well, in the end, I’m pretty sure that you’re pretty happy that their reaction was excessive in 1941…
Look at how France and Belgium intervene in their former colonies in Africa and their is nothing to be proud of. Look at how immigrants are treated in most of western Europe compared to the US (or Canada) and you have nothing to be proud of. There is nothing comparable to Jean-Marie Le Pen in the US.
What I’m saying is that its easy for us, the rest of the western world, to attack the US. Because they are powerful, because they are succesful, because they are sometimes excessive. But we should remember that they are not in an easy situation, that they bear terrible responsabilities, that we owe our freedom to their strength.
@pvhoof : I find it a bit rich for you to start lecturing the US on foreign policy to the point of refusing to travel there. Remember you are the citizen of a country thas has (comparatively) way more foreign blood on its hands.
And to start your argument with a quote from Chavez, that’s just adding insult to the injury! Maybe you should educate yourself a little bit about the desastrous politics of that guy? It’s not that hard to find quotes from people who disagree with US foreign policy and who have at least some credibility.
Hey Philip.
I really like your political postings – they are always quite provocative and give reason for arguments. Again i really think i share a lot of your thoughts but disagree on some points. Let’s see you said:
“I can’t visit a country that doesn’t respect human rights, is directly responsible for thousands of innocent dead and of which its politicians think that they own the planet. They don’t. For me, visiting the country wouldn’t feel right.”
I totaly agree to your critique about the states – for me this critique would also apply to a lot of other states – say germany for example:
– disrespecting human rights: ask asylum seekers in germany – they are not allowed out of their local area. They are not allowed to work and totally dependend on state supply with food which often does not even respect their cultural background. Once refused asylum they will be put into prisons without ever commiting a crime and forced out of the contry using brute force. This includes killing them on the plane as happened to Aamir O. Ageeb.
( http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGEUR230042000 )
– killing thousands of innocents: well thousands? germany killed milliones.
– politicians think they own the world: check. They are not in the position to outact it as bad right now but looking at german military forces spread all over the world and german industry it’s obvious that their politics is just what they wrote down in the new military doctrine some years ago: it’s the armys job to secure control over resources on a global level.
Well – so i would not mind if you’d also refuse to visit germany and i am sure the same applys to a lot of different states as well.
But my point is rather that it’s not so much a question of the state. I know some people from the US who have been involved in resistance against Irak war. And most of them have been way more passionate and involved then the people i meet at anti war rallys here. For example on day X when the war started they literally shut down downtown San Fransisco. We blocked the nato headquarters here in Heidelberg but in the following month it would have been really easy to block tank convoys heading from the local area (there is a lot of us army around) here to the frankfurt airbase from where they where flown to the gulf area. But hardly anyone cared – even though germany was officially against that war.
So all i want to say is – you’ll meet anti war activists all around the world and you’ll meet war mongers all around the world. I think we should stay in contact with people in the states who oppose the current politics because it’s really hard for them to get heard. Not only in the states but also on the global scale. Hardly anyone here remembers the hundrets of thousands that took it to the streets in US when the war started but everyone remembers that there were sooo many people in Berlin (half a million – a large part of them government supporters, while there where several milliones in italy and spain who in the meantime kicked out their governments of war.)
Sorry i am just a little sick of a lot of germans claiming germany would be anti war while their doing nothing but blaming “the americans” – so i get into ranting quite fast. Don’t know what it’s like in Belgium.
If you like Chavez so much, you should visit Caracas (the Capital of Venezuela) when you have a chance. You’ll see the true “social democracy” Chavez so much defends. You’ll see that only that only chavistas (those in Chavez’s party) have access to public health care, public education, and state funded jobs. You’ll also notice that while 80% of the Venezuelan population is poor, Chavez wins elections with only 30% of the vote (and remember voting for Chavez gets your kids education and healthcare — could he possibly suck that much?).
No need to tell me about Chavez. I’m Venezuelan.
Personally I kinda lost respect for Chavez when he visited Belarus and was all cuddly with the dictator there. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5209868.stm) Sorry, but that was in my opinion a very bad move for his credibility. I certainly don’t know much about Venezuela or Chavez, but until then my general impression had been that he is more or less a “good guy”, reasonably democratically elected, although perhaps using a bit over-the-top rhetorics. But being friendly with the last dictator in Europe, what was he thinking?
Carlos: Where do the 80% and 30% numbers come from? According to Wikipedia and news sources I just checked, the portion of the population which is poor is between 40% and 53%, depending on who you listen to, and Chavez won the 2000 elections with 60% of the vote. He won the 2004 recall with 59% of the vote. Both polls were audited by outside observers.
53% is what the Venezuelan Institute for Statistics (which is Chavez-controlled) says the percentage of poor people is. I would not expect it to be any lower than that. 30% is the percent of the population eligible to vote that actually voted to keep Chavez 2004, it is actually a bit more — like 35%.
Note that I’m not arguing about how Chavez got to power in 1998, and how through some constitutional changes he was immediately reelected in 2000.
The results of the 2004 polls were audited by outside observers, true. Some well respected entities (like OAS) described fundamental problems. One of which was that the exit polls showed different results with very high confidence, and that ballots were never manually counted.
But anyway, Hans, I am sure that you armed with wikipedia know more about my country than I.
btw. I focused on his specific quotes, not on his own domestic politics.
However, because I like being informed, like Hans I read about his carreer on wikipedia. this is that is all I know about Hugo Chavez. If Venuzuelans disagree with the text about their current leader on wikipedia, it’s advisable to make modifications to the information which is available there (because that is what a lot people, like me and Hans, read about him).
to both Tester and Max: I have mixed feelings about bringing up WOII on every modern subject. What has happened during the World Wars was indeed not always the best side of mankind. But when I say that I have principles and/or complain about the foreign policy of a country, I’m talking about the current situation. Not about the historical situation.
Except for the situation of Aamir O. Ageeb, and in Belgium we had a similar situation, I don’t ‘dislike’ the current German politicians. They had nothing to do with whatever the German generals and politicians did during WOII. The German people of today have no guilt whatsoever. German soldiers might have killed lots of people in my country. That doesn’t mean that Germany and it’s people should forever be punished over and over again.
I wrote ‘try again when you have real and good leaders in Washington’. This makes this point clear to: what American politicians are doing today, shouldn’t make future politicians feel guilty about it. But I do disagree with American foreign politics of today.
Bartv: I wonder about that foreign blood the current politicians of my country have caused you are talking about? I know that the Belgium government didn’t act correctly during the Congo/Zaire genocide. But it wasn’t Belgian people/solders killing people, nor did Belgium gave these people weapons nor was the Belgium government pro this masacre (absolutely not). In Iraq, it are American bullets and American soldiers killing people. In Lebanon it was American weapons being used by Iraeli soldiers and a politican green light from American politicians. But feel free to enlighten me about this foreign blood caused by Belgians. You could say our first king wasn’t a nice guy at his rubber factories. But that really really is history. I mean, that happened more than hundred years (19th century) ago. I don’t see how that can have anything to do with the modern politics of todays politicians in America.
Tester, I also don’t see what Jean-Marie Le Pen has to do with my country? :)
As a Lebanese and an Arab having to deal daily with the results of the US foreign policy, i totally appreciate and salute your stance.
However, i feel that the US citizens(gnomers or otherwise) are responsible for the US foreign policy killing hundreds of thousands of people. They are responsible in the sense that they brought the current or previous governments to power and they have the power to change or protest their government’s actions since they live in a so-called democracy.
@Tester
You bring up that the Iraqi invasion should be viewed in the light of bringing freedom to the middle east. This is frustrating to me because they only came up with that rational for invading about a year after they had already invaded. That is not why they invaded it is now what they say to get support for their stay there from people like you and the general population. They invaded on the pretext that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. He did not. So they either invaded on false and wrong information and thus the whole thing is a big mistake they are trying to cover up or they invaded for another reason which the weapon of mass destruction was also a cover for. Many would say it had something to do with oil and a more personal vendetta against Sadam. So either it was a mistake or a purposeful lie that got America into Iraq. Bringing freedom to the middle east had nothing to do with that. That is spin control and nothing more. So please don’t flout that around and say that the US is altruistic and benevolent because it’s not true, they are either stupid (it was a mistake) or actually quite malevolent (it was a purposeful lie).
@haplo: The WMDs were brough up by Blair, Powell and friends believed in the whole international law thing. And that a country is rule by dictators is not a good reaon to invade it. So they tried to come up with something else. I agree with you totally that they should have been honest from the onset that it was never about WMDs. If it was about oil, Saddam would have been more than happy to sell it to them or to anyone else willing to pay for it. It was all along about reshaping the Middle East. I find you distrust of the American people and their motivation especially worrying considering all they have done for the world.
About Le Pen, I dont follow Belgian politics to closely, but I’m sure you have the same kind of anti-immigration party (seems like all of the european countries have it on some level).. And you dont find that in America and I think it tells something about the people who live there.
I also notice that you dont say anything about Afghanistan. I dont know if it has anything to do with the presence of Belgian troops there. Or is that war just?
I dont like bringing up WWII too much either. But I wasn’t so much pointing out what the Europeans have done, but the fact that nothing of the sort has happened since. That the American policies that we love to hate have made the world a safer place. What I’m trying to say is that, ok you can criticize what they do. But you also have to think of why they did it and maybe not always assume the worst. And what would have happened had they not done it? History can teach us lessons. When after WWI they went back into isolationism instead of taking an active role in the world, it resulted in WWII and they had done nothing to prevent it. They learned their lesson. Yes they do what they do becaue they dont want bad thing to happen to them. But it would be bad for us too. It would be bad for everyone. Remember, we’re all on the same side here.
@Tester: the fact that the US doesn’t have an equivalent of Le Pen’s FN unfortunately says more about the two-party electoral system in the US than the level of racism there. The main reason that the racists are more visible in some European countries is that they have a proportional representation system that allows smaller parties to win representation.
In fact the US has enjoyed a long and inglorious history of racism from slavery through racial segregation (which continued until the 1960s) and organisations such as the Klu Klux Klan still enjoy strong support in the South.
@Tester
Oh and please don’t assume ‘we’ are on the same side here. Many people here in Europe regard the US government as being as much a threat to the world as the “terrorists” it claims to be fighting.
Carlos:
I simply asked where your numbers came from, since they are at odds with what is being reported elsewhere. You see, when we say “X% of the vote”, we mean “X% of the vote”, not “X% of the total population”. Also, you didn’t back up the poverty number.
The Wikipedia article on Chavez has links to a lot of sources, partly because it’s so embattled. You still have none.
It’s interesting that you pull the “you don’t live here” argument on me. Frankly, I think your position has more to do with political predisposition than with facts. Venezuela is obviously a polarized country, and one could find a Venezuelan who disagrees with you easily enough.
Thanks for the insult, though – it’ll be much easier for me to pick sides now.
@pvanhoof : FN-Herstal : Belgian bullets proudly killing people all over the world, especially in war torn Africa. Dick Cheney might be a private investor in Halliburton but the Walloon region has full ownership of FN. With a company like that who needs ethics or scruples? And indeed Belgian politicians have never been shy from changing the laws to accomodate FN weapons export (remember Nepal, another of those shining democracies?) or according licenses for production in countries with even more dubious checks and balances on weapon production.
I find your argument that we carry no responsability about our own history but Americans carry responsability about politicians they may not have voted for laughable. Some of the Americans you’d be meeting have less to do with Mr Bush than you and I have to do with Mr Martens who didn’t seem to have any problems looking a certified mass murderer like Mobutu in the eye without so much mentioning human rights… Or do you rather prefer Belgian leftish politicians marvelling about the great and social Romanian or East German leaders up and till the fall of the Iron Curtain? And yet, we, Belgians, keep electing them as our mayors, representatives for parlement or according them honorary positions in international institutions.
Pot… kettle… black. I am sure you can fill in the blanks. And while you’re at it. Wager a guess how many people we keep on starving in developing countries with our disastrous protectionist farming policies? At that scale 400 deads PER DAY would even count as a succes.
Hey bvanh2, the American politicians that I mentioned are current and ruling “today”. Last time I checked, Martens was not our prime minister anymore. I also wasn’t at my voting age when he was. I was even to young to go on the streets and protest against the FN weapons exports that happened. Being a Belgian I’m btw shy about that company. Oh and there are definitely other things that I dislike about the history of my country. I can imagine German people also dislike parts of their history.
I mostly care about the “current” intentions of a country, of people. About their “current” ideals and goals. Both the US and Israel can definitely regain my respect. Their “current” ideals and goals, however, conflict with gaining my respect.
You mention that some of he Americans I’d be meeting have nothing to do with Mr. Bush. That’s indeed correct, and I have repeatedly said something like that on multiple blog comments of multiple people including my own and this one. I wonder how come you didn’t read those? Or else why do you try to use this? I said, multiple times now and VERY clearly (so clearly that one probably is an idiot if he doesn’t understand it, or is unwilling to understand it .. in which case the discussion with that person and me is NOW closed), that my decision is not based on the guilt nor non-guilt of people that I would meet at the conference, people living in the area of Boston or GNOME community members, but that it’s based on my principles. Principles about the foreign policy of the current US leaders.
If an African person who I would want to meet would decide that he can’t visit my country out of a similar principle, then I would respect that and his reasoning.
I fail to see how having principles is laughable. Throwing everybody’s principles on a stack which you called “pot.. kettle.. black” is what I call laughable. You are basically telling me I can’t have principles because well, everybody and every country has a history? Because of “pot.. kettle.. black”? Well, yeah, that’s laughable. Isn’t it?
It is. If everybody would simply throw away his or her principles on ground of what you propose, then I think we would already have nuked this planet a few times now.
By the way, I also believe you on purpose misinterpreted my words. I’ll quote you and illustrate:
“I find your argument that we carry no responsability about our own history but Americans carry responsability about politicians they may not have voted for laughable.”
First of all I didn’t say individual Americans carry full responsibilty. I said I believe the people of the US at least carry a partial responsibility for the foreign policy being pushed by their current government.
Second I don’t think I said that we shouldn’t care about our own history. I do believe it’s important, however, to remember our histories. Which in a way is dealing with or carrying responsability of our own history.
For example, I respect the history of WOII and find it an important lession from the past. This is my way of carrying (taking care of) responsibility with our (own) history. Lot’s of my principles are based on those lessions.
I also think it’s important that the people of a country care about what their government is doing. Even if they didn’t vote for that government. It’s not productive for Americans who didn’t vote for Mr. Bush to stop caring about what he’s doing. But I don’t think people in America don’t care. I am, however, letting such people know that people here in Europe care. They didn’t stop caring, and they sure shouldn’t stop.
@pvanhoof : FN is still owned by Belgian authorities right now and its ammunition is still being used to kill people in shady places as we are having this conversation. Belgiums misdealings in Rwanda and Congo are only very recent and given the scope and sheer human tragedy of what went wrong there we can still rightfully place some of the blame on the current powers that be.
You standing up for principles your principles is not laughable. What is laughable is that you apply them disproportionally and inconsistently to one country only. Principles should hold for everyone, at any time lest they not be principles anymore.