I would like to mirror a comment on my previous blog entry so that people in the US would at least see how their “democratic” decisions are having serious consequences on non-US peoples lives.
I wouldn’t agree if the commenter meant that US citizens are indeed fully responsible. I would, however, agree if he meant that US citizen are at least partially responsible for what is the result of US foreign policy.
It’s easy to throw the guilt at your government. But you are the people who should protest; You are the people who shouldn’t have voted for this government; You are the people that, while very few non-US people on this planet believed that it was possible, reelected this absurd current US government; You are the parents, brothers and sisters of soldiers that agree to fight absurd wars on behalf of their equally absurd governments; And YOU mister US-solder, are the person who pulls the trigger. In this case it where the Israel proxy soldiers pulling that trigger. I don’t see a significant difference. Both types of soldiers are murderers. Both get or got their highest orders from US politicians (don’t tell us the US had nothing to do with it, we are not idiots).
The comment:
As a Lebanese and an Arab having to deal daily with the results of the US foreign policy, I totally appreciate and salute your stance.
However, I feel that the US citizens (GNOMErs or otherwise) are responsible for the US foreign policy killing hundreds of thousands of people. They are responsible in the sense that they brought the current or previous governments to power and they have the power to change or protest their government’s actions since they live in a so called democracy.
equally have the power to keep it going, thank goodness.
As an American and Jewish heritaged citizen having to deal daily with the results of half baked religious fundamentalism in foreign policy of most middle eastern nations, I completely disagree with your stance.
However, I feel that the Lebanese and other countries citizens (GNOMErs or otherwise) are responsible for their own policies such as enacting fundamentalist politicians, supporting armed terror groups who attempt to infiltrate my countries, strapped with bombs, in order to kill themselves and obtain a place in heaven. They are responsible in the sense that they brought the current governments or terrorist organizations to power, and support their current state by a) funding them b) not removing them from their own borders. They have the power to change or protest their governments actions since they are HUMAN BEINGS AND CAPABLE OF STANDING UP FOR WHAT THEY BELIEVE IN.
So .. that justifies killing mostly civilians and destroying mostly civilian infrastructure in Lebanon? I strongly disagree with your point of view. I haven’t seen Israel achieving anything interesting against Hezbolla. They didn’t even touch the organization. They only made it stronger and gave more people a reason to fight Israel. It did this at the cost of Lebanese civilians and civilian infrastructure.
The entire operation was a big failure and DID cause many innocent deaths. It showed how incapable the Israeli army is at focusing on the enemy. It showed how little the Israeli government cares about the lives civilians in the Middle East area.
Most Jews defending their war on Lebanon act as if we didn’t watch what was happening. As if they had real reasons to kill civilians and to destroy civilian infrastructure. As if it was justified.
That acting is yet another form of disrespect.
We don’t forget wasabi. We never will. And we do saw what happened. The event is burned on the skin of Israeli people. For ever.
I continue to find it intruiging that Hezbollah, which amounts to what is effectively a Lebanese para-military organization is given free reign to do whatever they feel like. They launched a first strike on a sovereign nation, by first abducting Israeli soldiers, and later firing rockets into civilian areas. I will concede the point that Israel may have failed in their retaliation, but the retaliation was itself fully justified. It is an unfortunate fact of war that people get hurt. No one complains when Hesbollah kills innocent Israeli civilians. This forces me to conclude that the only reason Israel is held “accountable” is because they are unpopular.
Ryan:
“It is an unfortunate fact of war that people get hurt.”
A modern army with modern weapons, like the ones Israel got from the US, can and should avoid killing civilians, destroying civilian infrastructure. We saw Israeli forces specifically targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure.
Israel isn’t going to fool anybody over this. They DID target civilians, they DID kill civilians and they DID destroy civilian infrastructure.
They are held accountable because they could have but didn’t avoid killing civilians, destroying civilian infrastructure. This indeed makes them inpopular. Or are you trying to tell me their actions, which where clearly targeted at civilians, should make them popular instead?
I have a tip for you: try explaining a citizen of Lebanon Israel didn’t target civilian infrastructure. The person will probably think you are a sick-in-the-head individual.
Does what justify what? None of this is justified, none of it isn’t. It’s just the way we work, us humans. We’re tribal. We let other’s feed us false facts. We have very malliable minds.
Here’s how I see it from Israel’s POV:
We live in a region where nobody likes us. A good number of them actually want to wipe us off the map, throw us in the ocean. Some for religious reasons, some because our ancestors moved into the land and pissed off somebody else ancestors. Some for various other reasons. We are a lot of people. We aren’t leaving. And we aren’t going to let ourselves be killed. What do we do? We defend ourselves. We do what we can to prevent our own people from being killed. How? We do our best to not let people infiltrate the country. We notice that the large military groups that are bent on destroying us are being sheltered in neighboring countries. Despite our requests that these organizations are committing violence against our people using this other countries land, the other country is either powerless or unwilling to prevent it. Nobody is left to solve the problem other than us. So we try to. Our enemy shelters themselves WITH civilians, wears no identifying clothing, uses pickups and AMBULANCES to ship weapons destined to kill our people. What are we to do? The best we can is all that can be done. We act on intelligence, some of it flawed, but with the best intentions. Because of the enemy’s insistance of sheltering themselves with civilians (which from their POV is pretty effective!) we end up killing a lot of civs. That sucks. But, what other choice of action is there? Would sure be nice if those civs didn’t let that group do that.
From US:
Not many people can threaten us directly. We are threatened by people related to the same groups that threaten israel, because we support israel. Why do we support israel? Because they’re friendly to us. Because lots of our people are Israeli. Because we have lots of our people in Israel. We trade with them. We have people move back and forth. We’re good to each other. So we protect them, to protect ourselves. We are flawed. Everybody is though. Our government is big. Some people in it are driven by religious motives, some by idealistic motives, some actually know what they’re doing. We do tend to meddle in other governments… not because we like meddling, but because at the time we feel it necessary to protect our own people. Excuses? Maybe. But that’s all this is.
From Hezbollah:
“i will crush you jew with my jaw”
pvanhoof,
You hold modern weaponry in too high a regard. Modern laser guided weaponry is good, but the laser is still pointed by a human being. The triggers are still pulled by human beings. THe drones are still flown by human beings. What these humans have is a hazy greenish picture of the target area and small greenish blips where people are. Not to add when the enemy fires missles from the tops of residental buildings, or shortly after firing them, runs into a residental building, or a mosk or whatever. Ever tried to keep a dot on a single person from 3 miles away in a moving helicopter with a joystick?
“Why do we support israel? Because they’re friendly to us”
No. The real answer was: Because Israel gives us (the US) an foot-on-ground in the Middle East, which has lots of oil, oil that we need for our economy. And the only thing we have to do is to make Israel happy with guns.
Maybe should the US, just like any other country in this world, get its oil the exact same way every other country in this world gets it. My trading. Not by invading (a country, like Iraq) nor by forcing. But it’s just a tip, of course.
Also, do keep in mind how many missles were being fired on israel PER DAY from Lebanon. Thousands. THOUSANDS. That’s a lot. Those coming from a different team, in the same city. Some on buildings right next to each other.
Hey. I don’t support Israel because of hte oil thing. I don’t see how they give us a “foot on the ground”. Israel is in no position to negotiate with Iran or Iraq or Saudi to give us oil. And they haven’t yet invaded the entire ME to get oil for us.
Also, that’s completely false. I have relatives who travel freely too/from israel. I do business with Israelis in Israel. They do business with us. They are our FRIENDS. We are not isolated from them and uncaring of their fate.
Hell, the firewall we have right here is made by an Israeli company.
pvanhoof said — “We don’t forget wasabi. We never will. And we do saw what happened. The event is burned on the skin of Israeli people. For ever.”
In your last post you said, “That doesn’t mean that Germany and it’s people should forever be punished over and over again.”
So which one is it? I think you have your own biases you are incapable of seeing.
pvanhoof, In your last post you said, “In Iraq, it are American bullets and American soldiers killing people.”
Not quite. By far the most killing that is happening is Iraq vs Iraq — most of which is from Sunni vs Shiite violence. I supose the USA is responsible for Sunnis and Shiites haiting each other too.
The US govt and the US people are by far the most generous and giving in the world. This stems from our financial stability, lack of huge govt social institutions and personal willingness to help. Pvanhoof, your biases are blinding you from seeing the flawed world we live and from balancing the good with the bad. Welcome to humanity and earth.
@pvanhoof
“No. The real answer was: Because Israel gives us (the US) an foot-on-ground in the Middle East, which has lots of oil, oil that we need for our economy. And the only thing we have to do is to make Israel happy with guns.”
Israel does not export oil, nor do they provide us with any useful means of getting in. In fact, the US’s relationship with Israel is a major sticking point with many of the US’s allies in the area, such as Saudi Arabia, which actually do export oil.
Hey Philip,
I am the person who left the comment above.
I just want to warn you that your views are going to make you really unpopular. A lot of people seem to have nothing else to do but to come and spread their lies such as that wasabi person. I would gladly debate them if they can back up their claims with references. And if i had no life i would also point them to the articles and pictures that expose their lies.
Anyway, i have some pictures that i took of the destruction in Beirut if you want to look at them. http://codedemigod.com/gallery along with some pictures from the press on my blog.
alaasalman, what claims did I make that required backup? The best I can see is that hezbollah uses civilan firing points. If you require backup for that, I’m sure I can find a few dozen sources. Is that what you refer to?
What lies? Everything I said was opinion anyways. ;)
On the war on Lebanon. What else could Israel have done? Let their citizen be kidnapped? They had to send a strong message, that the consequences would be so bad that they wont try again. And in this sense, the Israelis succeeded.
And the surgical strike of modern weapons, they just allow you to destroy the building more effectively without destroying the whole neighborhood. But if the rockets are stored in an appartment building, well you need to destroy it. Also on the strike on civilian infrastructure. I read an interesting article where they pointed out that most of those where friends of Hezbollah or used by Hezbollah. Like they destroyed banks that Hezbollah used to move its money.
You seem to hold the American people responsible for the actions of their government. But you dont hold the Lebanese responsible for theirs (who was elected too). A government that includes ministers from an organisation whose leader said he wanted all the jews to go to israel so he could kill them all at the same time. We hold Israel to a standard so much higher than any Arab nation. And I think that because we see the Jews as our equals, as modern nation, but the Arabs as inferior, a bit like children who play with dangerous toys but dont really understand what they do. And we, the modern white men, we have to help them (because they can’t do it by themselves). Face it, Hezbollah was and is still part of the Lebanese government and they brough it on themselves. They declared war to the regional super power and they saw the result.
Oh hey. I just realized that my post was truncated. I left off with
“i will crush you jew with my jaw”
There was more following that. There a length limit?
Anyways. That was a message I received from a Lebonese teenager I emailed back and forth with a few times. Why does he want to crush me with his jaw? I have no idea. Because he calls me a “jew” I can assume he wants to be I am jewish. Why? Because jewish people are inherintely bad? Not likely. Probalby more likely that he has some religious belief that jewish people are inherently bad. Is this his fault? Probably not, he was brought up and surrounded with these beliefs. Either way, it’s not good. :0
Does that represent all of Hezbollah? Definatly not. All of Lebanon, most certainly not. But some of them. Enough that they seem to be in control.
Enough to threaten me, and by firing missles at my relatives, threaten them.
Firstly, I applaud you for sticking to your principles and choosing not to support the economy of a country whose Government goes completely against any kind of morality by flying and visiting this country.
Thank you also for bring up the Venezuelan president’s speech in the UN. I really applaud him for having the balls to confront this issue while most of the European leaders who almost definitely agree are too scared to open their mouth. The US Government has shown they will impose their lack of moral values across the world, with or without the UN. Recall the “coalition of the willing” for imposing sanctions on Iran without UN backing.
To wasabi and tester, I am not going to defend launching firecrackers into Israel but compare the attack of Lebanon’s country with advanced powerful munitions such as cluster bombs with the only defense the Lebanese could do, sending firecrackers across the border. And yes, it was defense because the Israeli miltary struck first. Running a commando mission into Israel to capture 2 soldiers should not start up a war, just like commando missions into Lebanon to assasinate people over the last decade should not start up a war.
Uh. Dude. If another country sanctioned a commando mission into any civilized country in the world it would be an act of war. They invaded their territory, they kidnapped their citizens, they did so with the backing of the local government. That is an ACT OF WAR.
From Random House:
an act of aggression by a country against another with which it is nominally at peace.
^ “act of war”
And I”m not here to COMPARE anybodies attacks scales of destruction. This isn’t some nice fuzzy warm chivalrous thing, these are people DYING. This isn’t “I’ll spit at you so you only spit at me.” This is people running into a country with GUNS, shooting and KILLING other people. If somebody attempted this to me, and came at me with only a knife, I’d be an idiot for not picking up and using the gun on my nightstand to defend myself out of “honor”. You’d do the same.
It’s really nice to see someone still has the courage to speak his mind. Hopefully more people join the boycott of the Boston Summit.
Hey Petteri,
Please note that I’m not calling fr a boycott and that my reasons not to visit America are personal, based on principles and my political point of view on the US. Boycotting a conference is, in my personal opinion, not the right thing to do. The people at Boston who put their time and energy in this meeting are probably good people.
I regret that I can’t visit the conference and would have visited it if the current American political atmosphere wouldn’t have been as ,in my opinion, wrong as it is today. Especially foreign politics, as those affect me and other people on this planet. ps. I indeed don’t nor should care a lot about domestic politics of the country. Those politics are the problems of US citizen, not my problem.
wasabi: Lebanon did not start a war when the country whose policies you love kept on assasinating and capturing people inside Lebanon.
Petteri: the conference should not be boycotted, but people should stand up for their principles which is what Philip has done.
wasabi: Americans: “We will bomb your country back to the stone age.”