Not watching youtubers very often I almost forgot about Pat Condell’s video blog. Today I decided to take a look at his latest video material.
Pat Condell is, just like me, an outspoken atheist who enjoys exercising his freedom of speech to criticize various religions. Fairly often he criticizes Islam.
Before I continue I’ll remind people that, like Pat Condell, I have nothing in particular against Islam. I don’t have anything against peaceful people in general. Christian, Muslim, atheist, Buddhist or whatever: I don’t care that much. I don’t believe any of those fairy tales, but it’s your freedom to do! I do care about it when, in for example Western countries, countless Christians try to expunge you from society because “you don’t believe in anything”. For many of them not believing is worse than believing in the wrong God, or being a Satanist, or being a sadist. I want to criticize religions and I want to stress the importance of having the right to criticize religions.
Pat takes on the ultra tolerant liberal left people in this video. Just like Pat I used to be on the liberal left. And just like Pat, because I believe in things like social justice, tolerance and respect, I am no longer on the liberal left. Here’s a quote from the video:
You people have certainly reminded me , as if I needed reminding, why my political views have changed in recent years. You see.. foolishly, perhaps, I used to take freedom for granted.
But now thanks to ultra tolerant self hating-multicultural lemmings like you, I don’t.
Politically I used to always be on the liberal left. Because I believe in things like social justice, tolerance and respect. You know, the good things in life. I still believe in those things, which is why I’m no longer on the liberal left.
In this video Pat talks about banning the burka. Given that wearing a burka in Western countries is most definitely only done to make a pathetic political statement, I think it is indeed a good idea to ban burkas. Besides you’re not allowed to wear ski masks when you enter a bank either. You’re not allowed to walk naked in the streets. Yet countless people are trying to claim that these women should have a right to wear burkas. Framing it that way is of course utter bullshit: the debate isn’t about women rights at all. Claiming that it is, is being intellectually dishonest. The debate is about the right for a Islamist husband to claim ownership over a woman or a girl. This isn’t a right in Western countries. The fact that it isn’t, is a good thing.
Pat also points out that Western feminists are rather silent about women rights in Islam. Usually feminists are assertive and confident but this time, apparently, feminists are muted on the issue. Why is that? Where are they?
For the person who recently debated religion with me (you know who you are): I recently read “Letter to A Christian Nation” by Sam Harris. Very interesting read. I recommend it!
I stand firmly with you in the ridiculing of woo-based belief systems, and that fighting for the rights of individuals nessitates fighting against the rights of groups.
I disagree with the burka ban idea however. But I’m in America, where wearing a swastika in public is perfectly legal… just socially unacceptable. I’m fine with that.
Appendum:
If the society suitably promotes individual expression and self empowerment over group-think, it becomes redundant to restrict the rights of individuals to dress as they choose. If the women are wearing burkas to make a point, whatever it may be, then that to me is exactly ideal. They should feel empowered to make their point. Regardless how wrong headed it is. If they’re wearing them because they feel overpowered by their society, then that’s different, and we should address that.
@Jerome Haltom: I wouldn’t mind the burkas if burkas weren’t an expression of Islamist men’s ownership over a woman or a girl. It most definitely is such an expression, and that most definitely isn’t allowed in Western Europe (it’s called slavery, and it’s illegal).
Besides are extremist Muslims in Europe *only* asking their women to wear those burkas just to make a political statement about the culture they despise, yet for some reason choose the life in (like Pat puts it, in the video). If they despise the culture so much, perhaps it would be better for them to simply leave? It’s not that we in Europe are in need of extremists …
@pvanhoof: Whose expression are they, though? If the women are coerced into wearing them through physical or other violence, then sure. But are they?
The statement of “if you don’t like it, leave”, is the same statement frequently used by the far right Republicans in America right now. No. If you don’t like it, make your voice heard, convince others, and vote. That’s why we have free speech. On this side of the pond, anyways.
I don’t think I’m going as deep as you are into this. In my mind, government simply should not be tasked with enforcing a dress code except where fire hazard, safey hazard, requirement to be identified, are compelling reasons. If you want to make Muslim’s stop wearing burkas, I think you’d be better served by telling them how dumb it is, to their faces. Convince them. Protest. Make your voice heard. Don’t mandate it. It won’t work in the long run, anyways. It will simply be perceived as government suppression.
Well, requirement to be identified sounds like a good reason to disallow wearing burkas in various situations.
I also think we should be honest about what burkas are being used for: suppression of women. I think wearing burkas is already being ridiculed by society here (Belgium), and the last numbers I saw indicated that there’s not a burka problem in Belgium at all. So I agree that right now, at least in my country, no specific government action is needed. Just individual assistance to help those woman to get rid of their crazy husbands (if proven to be needed).
I do believe women are more than often coerced into wearing these burkas, by the way. I think that women who want to wear it are a rarity compared to women who have to wear it.
What I also care about is that making a woman wear such a burka in a European nation basically equals making sure that she’ll really never ever integrate into European Western society.
I’ve been wondering about this too. Banning a certain type of dress is a bridge too far for me, though. The problem isn’t with the burqa, the problem is that a burqa represents submission or enslavement as you put it. Banning clothes feels like the easy way out of tackling the real problem. And I do realize that practically speaking it’s very difficult to make sure that people have and use the freedom to wear whatever they want.
But I’m slightly more worried about giving the government a (police and army -backed) say in things as subjective as fashion tastes and morals. Because that’s pretty much what countries you’d classify as extremist like to do.
If a not-oppressed devout muslim or a satanist transvestite want to wear a burqa, I don’t see why they shouldn’t be allowed to. Protect the oppressed, don’t take the easy way out and just ban the symbols of the oppression.
And don’t get me wrong: I do think it is a symbol of oppression, and I’m still surprised how shocked I can be when I meet someone dressed in a burka in public. It really feels like they’re implying we’re all sluts and harlots for not dressing “modestly”.
Given that wearing a burka in Western countries is most definitely only done to make a pathetic political statement, I think it is indeed a good idea to ban burkas.
Let me put it this way – do you *really* want the government (any government) making rules about people’s choice of dress? While I don’t approve of the burqa, passing laws prohibiting it seem to me little different from passing laws *requiring* it – it’s a highly undesirable precedent.
I absolutely think we should publicly ridicule these beliefs though. pvanhoof: have you read much Dawkins, or Coyne? Or follow PZ Myer’s blog? These folks share my stance. Public, honest, serious, critiques of ideas. But ultimate freedom of expression being preserved while doing it.
I also have to seriously question where one can draw the line between “being forced to” and not. For instance, these women may be choosing to wear it, because they feel social pressure to do so. But many people are in that situation about many different things. Atheists living in Christian households are, through social pressure, forced to pretend to be Christian. Amish, though being instilled with certain ideologies from their childhood up, end up doing the same in their adulthoods. There’s nothing surprising about this. But it’s not being forced. Many of these Muslim women probably do believe it is right and proper for them to wear a burka. They feel that way because that’s how they were raised. They feel like it is their job to be obedient to their husbands. So lets expose them to other ideas, lest we make ‘teaching your beliefs to your children’ illegal.
Love how you make use of your freedom of speech :)
Go!
Regarding the burkas: Everyone else has to show their faces, why should we make any excuse?
Ban the “hats” at least.
That’s a good question though. Is obscuring your face in public illegal? I don’t believe it is in the US. Or Michael Jackson would have had an issue.
You Wilders fans speak about social justice and tolerance, just to mask your racist hate against muslims.
Yes, they are all racists, there is nothing at all wrong with men forcing their wives to wear tents.
LaHaine, I hope you were being ironic here. Otherwise you must be a real idiot given that in the very videos that this blog is about, Pat Condell says these words to, exactly and precisely the useful idiots like you (yes, that was fully aimed at people like you):
Most people in the Western world realize it’s the truth [that the Western cultural values are far far superior to anything Islam has to offer], especially if you are female, or Jewish, or homosexual, or just a common old blasphemer like me.
And you lefty liberal multicultural appeasement monkeys, you’re not gonna like it. And you are certainly not gonna wanna speak out for the values that give you the freedom to be the useful idiots you are.
But if you could at least find it in your miserably frightened little harts not to slander those of us who do as racists, we’d all be very grateful.
As a left leaning athiest socialist liberal, I fully support you in ridiculing burkas and the like, but completely disagree that this should be illegal. On the other hand, something needs to be done to ensure that people can grow up to follow whichever spiritual path they choose, and not the one engrained in them by their parents. As such, banning overt religious dress in schools and requiring children to attend mixed sex and non-religious schools seems to me a better way of ensuring that the next generation has the best chance of escaping from oppression.
@Garth: so let’s ban any religious symbol out of schools. Including the Christian symbols. Let’s also stop giving religion in schools: religion is, just like believing in fairy tales, something personal. It’s not something a government should support *in any way at all*. And given that in the country where I live education is *heavily* supported by the government, I don’t see why we should still give religion in classrooms?! Just give students an hour per week general morality and philosophy instead. Perhaps use one month to teach them about the different religions that exist, but bring it in a scientific way. Some of those multicultural ultra tolerant liberal lefts, however, want to allow educators to wear burkas in classrooms in front of students: No, no and no.
So long as another person is not harming another, what is the problem other than your sensibilities being challenged? You seem to have a basic inability to comprehend that just because others think or act differently from you, doesn’t mean they are retarded thugs or imbeciles whose practices need to be banned. Get over it. If someone is wearing the burka in a western democratic country, there’s a good chance it is their choice to do so – even if that choice is a culturally transmitted inclination. We’re all culturally programmed – but it is only the anal/territorial personality that responds with aggressive repression or hostility to the “other”.
And of course we should teach religion in schools – it’s just that, like most subjects that are taught, the standards need to be re-evaluated and the content re-invigorated. Religious and mystic thought has been corrupted and exploited maliciously for millenia by charlatans and clergymen, but the ancient mysteries and their symbols (be they Christian, Pagan, Masonic) enabled and gave birth to the scientific age. Think Pythagaros, Plato, and Aristotle to name the most well-known. Science cannot replace what religious mystery provides. Sure, the majority of catholic, born-again, fundamentalist, pentecostal or whatever believers are bigoted and intolerant hypocrites who don’t understand what they profess to believe, but that doesn’t mean you throw the baby out with the bathwater.
You seem to believe in the scientific method – I sincerely suggest you apply it to your own social beliefs and morals, and see if you can correct your bad case of confirmation bias.
I have to +1 flowbot here. To be blunt, I have to say this post has an air of being written by a religious extremist wingnut, the only difference being that you choose to ascribe your beliefs onto science. What’s that? You’re too darn correct to be tolerant? Well you may or may not be right, but you do get bonus points for arrogance. Another +1 to the post that points out that the the symbol of oppression (yeah, the burkas) is different than the oppression itself. Even interpretation of the burka as a symbol of that is suspect in my mind, as I partly suspect that’s only in your mind. Symbols are awfully subjective monsters. I thought it was us Americans who were supposed to be the ones handling people who are different than us…
OTOH, if there are rules about having visible faces in public, and French people really do believe strongly in that as a public safety issue, clearly it’s their prerogative to do so, even if I disagree with it. Even on a personal level, it’s not really worth me forming a strong opinion on, as I have effectively no influence over it and it would only increase my blood pressure ;)
pvanhoof: so let’s ban any religious symbol out of schools. Including the Christian symbols. Let’s also stop giving religion in schools:
America is further toward that already. While students are free to do mostly whatever, classrooms and teachers aren’t allowed this sort of thing. This is probably one of the few areas the USA is more progressive than western Europe.
Anyway, I don’t really agree about burkas. You’ve got a society full of misogyny and slavery next door, and your response is to enforce a dress code? One that’s likely to result in *more* abuse in the home? I’m sorry, that’s sick.
If this was my problem, and I had the authority to work on it, I’d view burka use as a symptom. The real cause is sick men. My response would be free housing, security, and education for women who want out. Dress codes are sick and wrong.
Ehm, we already have free housing, security and education for women who want out. It’s called social security. And although I pay insane amounts of taxes, we have one of the better social security systems on this planet. Or why do you think all those Muslims come to our countries? … right, that’s why.
Flowbot seems to be completely on crack (or should i say religion) here. Having been a muslim for a big part of my life, I know exactly how religion (especially Islam) is itself the problem and how this usual excuse of “religions is just being mis-interpretted or mis-used” is nothing more than bullshit in it’s purest form available.
Firstly it’s a well-known fact that all the organized religions are based entirely on completely rediculous baseless assumptions so “misusing” them to fool the masses is just using them for the only purpose they can ever be used for in the modern world.
Secondly, In Quran it is clearly mentioned that a Husband is allowed to beat his wife if he has “doubts” that she is sleeping with someone else, as the last resort to get her on the “right path”. Modern interpretations of Quran put “softly” in the verse to make it sound a bit acceptable but There is no mention what so ever in the whole of Quran what a woman should do in case of her husband cheating on her, oh wait could this have something to do with Quran allowing a man to have four wives and as many slave girls as he can afford? So should we allow that in the western world under the “religious freedom” umbrella and telling ourselves that muslim women actually want that? No, we must not and this is the same reason, Burqa must not be allowed.
Thirdly, science has already given us so much knowledge about the past, present and future of this universe, it doesn’t take a rocket-scientist to realize that fact you’ll go for pure science instead of some random religion if you are serious about getting answers to the mysteries of life rather than just interested in keeping them “mysteries”. Seriously, can possibly point out a single answer provided by any religion to any mystery of life that could satisfy every sincerely curious soul?
Burkas are grotesquely misogynistic and vile in what they represent, but banning them (which presumably requires some government intervention) is untenable and disturbing in a similar oppression-against-freedom way.
I’m also with PZ on this one. Women (or men, for that matter) should be free to wear burkas, and we should be equally free to criticize the symbolism of that act.
pvanhoof: Ehm, we already have free housing, security and education for women who want out. It’s called social security. And although I pay insane amounts of taxes, we have one of the better social security systems on this planet. Or why do you think all those Muslims come to our countries? … right, that’s why.
Er, all right, that’s good to know, and I guess that means my suggestions don’t help. But how is a government dress code going to help? Because I’m pretty sure if you force women to do things their abusive men hate, it’s just going to end up increasing violence in the home.
@Ian: Here in Europe (and I’m sure in other civilized countries too) those men don’t have the right to oppress a woman by saying what she’s supposed to wear or do in the first place. That’s entirely up to the woman. If that creates violence, then my advise is to leave the person. In my country it’s becoming easier and easier each year to get a divorce. About 50% of people who marry get a divorce within 5 years I think. I think that’s a good thing, by the way.
pvanhoof: If that creates violence, then my advise is to leave the person.
I don’t think government policies that enhance domestic violence are OK. And certainly not those policies that don’t address the causes of the problems they’re trying to fix. But I don’t have any better suggestions than I’ve already listed, so there’s room in my head for new ideas.
Completely agree re. liberal divorce laws. It sounds like it’s the same way here, and I’m thankful for it. And agreed oppressed women should leave. Unfortunately, if you’ve known women in these situations, you know just how hard it is to get them out. No excuse for not trying, though…
(Apologies if this appears twice. I think your captcha ate my first try)
pvanhoof: If that creates violence, then my advise is to leave the person.
I’m not OK with government policies that enhance domestic violence. And especially not when those policies don’t treat the causes of that violence. But my suggestions didn’t amount to much, so there’s room in my head for new ideas.
Totally agree about liberal divorce laws. I think they’re a pillar to a just society. It sounds like they’re largely the same here, and we’re all better off for it. I also agree that oppressed women should leave. But you’ve probably known people in that situation, so you’re well aware of how hard it is for them to go from “should” to “did”. It’s terribly depressing.
“Here in Europe (and I’m sure in other civilized countries too) those men don’t have the right to oppress a woman by saying what she’s supposed to wear or do in the first place. That’s entirely up to the woman.”
Exactly. What gives *those* men the right to decide what women should wear. Obviously it should be up to pvanhoof to make decisions on how females are allowed to dress
As a conservative christian, I support an Islamic womans right to wear a burka. The police and security do have the right to see under it for identification perposes.
Pat has the right to not believe in God,and I have the right to believe.
My government doesn’t have the right to take my hard earned money and give it to another able bodied person for health care or any other social justice.